I shoot for free coz I love photography...

[grant]

A friend of mine just posted this link to me today...seems to encapsulate something I was thinking through the past week:

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1989

[silentshutter]

i totally agree with this. it's trend like this that is killing the industry.

[mac]

i am looking for someone to paint my house for FREE

[edward chan]

Originally Posted by mac i am looking for someone to paint my house for FREE

Call Ah Long at 1800-888-888 . But u sure u like red paint? seems to be thier fav colour

[omarjamaludin]

what to do..too many hobbyist..prices are low.. average joe can save up a lil get a nice d3 . gotta differentiate urself from hobbyist like these la i guess..

[webster]

unfortunately, (although i don't like to see it myself) it's a fact of life that is unavoidable. so what, you mean you want to ask people to pay just so that you can maintain your livelyhood? i know it's painful, but the natural tendency is to save money. but then that will be balanced by the quality of the shots. therefore my thoughts are that we are at a point where things are being shaken up and it will need some time to achieve a steady state where $$ and quality are balanced.

[pointblank]

the world is full of freeloaders ... not every type of industry has protection mechanism for professionals, that's just the way it is.

while looking at this article one should consider how easily it is in this part of the world to kill someone's professional business as for most entrepeneurships the requirements are less then zero.

for instance, you can sell food from the side of the road making a few bucks, basically killing the business from any professional food store. problem is, as long as their is a customers base and their are no regulations present, it will continue everlasting.

and the food business is only one of the many examples being present. my motto is, stick out from the crowd and you will survive. in the end, quality will pay off because there is always someone willing to pay for it, that is, 'well'.

real professionals that are capable of delivering constant quality are not concerned. those 'complaining' may not be as good as they think they are. think about it, it's all about a mindset.

[casphere.creative]

i dont mean to put down hobbyists who are passionate about shooting photos, but Matt Brown is right - they'd kill off the full-time pros in the industry.

Had that happen to me last month when I was shooting an event in Klang Parade-like in Matt Brown's case, the event organiser initiated contact with me to with the professional intention hire me as a photographer to cover his events. However, he began to get dodgy with I started mentioning the numbers to him and eventually, asked for terms that he'd pay for the photos he wanted.

Job done, I asked him when he would want to view the photos - and I got the shock of my life when he told me he had NO COMPUTER to view the photos. Instead he wanted me to print all the photos on 4R prints so that he could pick the ones he wanted. I told him each photo would be priced at RM30 each to cover for the travelling, food and labour costs incurred..... and he argued with me that 2 other photographers had quoted a selling price of RM1.10 for EACH of their photos which he wants.

To cut a long story short, I politely indicated to him he could look up the more affordable options for his upcoming events and hung up on him.

[photodelics]

Originally Posted by casphere.creative i dont mean to put down hobbyists who are passionate about shooting photos, but Matt Brown is right - they'd kill off the full-time pros in the industry. Had that happen to me last month when I was shooting an event in Klang Parade-like in Matt Brown's case, the event organiser initiated contact with me to with the professional intention hire me as a photographer to cover his events. However, he began to get dodgy with I started mentioning the numbers to him and eventually, asked for terms that he'd pay for the photos he wanted. Job done, I asked him when he would want to view the photos - and I got the shock of my life when he told me he had NO COMPUTER to view the photos. Instead he wanted me to print all the photos on 4R prints so that he could pick the ones he wanted. I told him each photo would be priced at RM30 each to cover for the travelling, food and labour costs incurred..... and he argued with me that 2 other photographers had quoted a selling price of RM1.10 for EACH of their photos which he wants. To cut a long story short, I politely indicated to him he could look up the more affordable options for his upcoming events and hung up on him.

In my humble novice opinion, every photographer should have their own policy, so that the customers would be able to follow our policy of service.

For instance, we must provide our service in very creatively. I wont say that my 4R pic will cost RM30 per piece, i would rather put it this way:

For instance only, not for real ar...

For Events:
My service for 4 hours will cost RM 1200, which would include 60piece of 4R prints(of your choice) with photo albums(of my choice), and 2pieces of 8R prints+frame for the group photo or any photo of your choice. But all photos will be burn in a DVD with My own Cover Design(photo of the cover will be taken from the event) Simple n easy to understand.

Must pay RM300 for deposits, money is not refundable if you wish to cancel the service.

then you make them sign a contract, for concrete proof..

just an idea....on how to make things clear to our customer so that they will know what to expect from us, not shoot first business later...
it have to be explain,>nego,>queries,>shoot,>choose>process>pay> go home.

go on and do the same for weddin ka/apa ka i dunno lah...

people dun like to count...
rm30 X i dunno how many pics i want.. = i dunno how much to pay...

so we must be clear on the service and the charges...
__________________________________________________ ______________

I totally agreed on the killing the industry part as mention by Mr pointblank...

if im a pro photog, this is what i would do:

for people who wants quality pics, and willing to pay, i give them Super Service Package, bring all the white lens, portable studio and all, and ask for the big bucks.

for normal shoot, to whose who wants cheap service, bring em cheap equipment, shoot like normal also, Normal Service Package..

if survival is the thing, come out with many service packages to compete...

people they like to have choice, give them choice, but make sure you are making profit out of it..

I choose not to give my pics freely, because im using a D40, malu la nanti kalau org tgk i punyer exif...

just my humble novice opinion...

[Steven Leong]

last night I was at Starbucks sippin' coffee with my friends, I bought a cup of fruity-something and had to pay 15 bucks for it; the same cup of fruity-something would cost me RM1.50 or in Penang's hawker's centers but it didn't stop all of us paying for no less than 10 bucks for coffee topped with some whipped cream or some other concoction in Starbucks.

Point is... yes, cheap stuff does work and so does more expensive stuff if you market it properly but for photography, most if not all M'sians have zero knowledge what a good photo or print or album looks like.

Anyone can basically pick up a DSLR, learn how to shoot in P mode, add in some shallow DOF stuff, shoot more "senget" pics, buy a flash plus some fancy "toilet-bowl" diffuser then you can start passing yourself off as a "professional photographer" and 99% of M'sians will never be able to tell the difference.

[jetfynn]

Originally Posted by casphere.creative i dont mean to put down hobbyists who are passionate about shooting photos, but Matt Brown is right - they'd kill off the full-time pros in the industry. He wanted me to print all the photos on 4R prints so that he could pick the ones he wanted. I told him each photo would be priced at RM30 each to cover for the travelling, food and labour costs incurred..... and he argued with me that 2 other photographers had quoted a selling price of RM1.10 for EACH of their photos which he wants. To cut a long story short, I politely indicated to him he could look up the more affordable options for his upcoming events and hung up on him.

A little OT here. Sometimes the clients may not understand how to differentiate what is quality and assume all photographers with an SLR or a DSLR are the same.

That's where the confusion begins at the client side. They start to think along the photography as a homogenous product and to get the best price possible along the lines of that thinking.

Have had my share of "lost" opportunities. Plenty of them over the years due to the above scenario.

ie:

"My friend / relative HAS a good camera" for a wedding.
- Although not all ended up as disasters as there are many good hobbyists around. We have received comments like "Should have paid you to do it, now regret" Too late.

"The company staff volunteered to take the annual dinner for free"
- Well, the company saved costs. Pity the staff who did not get to eat and enjoy the dinner due to his "enthusiasm".

Then again, there's positive outcome from rejecting the jobs in the first place as they came back to us knowing they can trust us doing a good job for them. ie: another sibling getting married, next year's annual dinner, etc, etc....

(Though not all as some may have "lost face" and "shy" to come back. Ah well.....)

[wasabi]

For Events: My service for 4 hours will cost RM 1200, which would include 60piece of 4R prints(of your choice) with photo albums(of my choice), and 2pieces of 8R prints+frame for the group photo or any photo of your choice. But all photos will be burn in a DVD with My own Cover Design(photo of the cover will be taken from the event) Simple n easy to understand. Must pay RM300 for deposits, money is not refundable if you wish to cancel the service.

__

for event RM1.2k still low....

[rook_1e]

everyone wants free stuff.. but to get good pictures.. hire the pro lah.. hire a hobbyist, you get a hobby pictures out of your wedding. ngehehehe,...

This also apply to other events...

[photodelics]

Originally Posted by wasabi __ for event RM1.2k still low....

for example only...not for real....

maybe i should change that to 4k..but it depends on the what kind of events that is...

[ari7474tme]

Many people still buy pirated DVDs from the sidewalk and there are those who buy original from proper stores. I guess its still up to your client. As for what Grant said about proper conduct during weddings, in his previous thread, that I agree.

So, if i charge 3k for a wedding (thats how much I think my work cost), then I think its my right. If another photog charges 10k (thats how much he thinks his work cost), then its his right. Again, if Mr Wannabe charges RM 500, then let him be. Most modern couples nowadays, knows what they want. And they are willing to pay if they like your work.

Guys, this is my opinion only ya.. To all pros, i fully respect what you guys do. Its tougher now in the digital era. Peace

[maxby]

Damn! I not only shoot for free but have to pay for every shot I made...

[divina]

Originally Posted by casphere.creative i dont mean to put down hobbyists who are passionate about shooting photos, but Matt Brown is right - they'd kill off the full-time pros in the industry.

Originally Posted by jetfynn That's where the confusion begins at the client side. They start to think along the photography as a homogenous product and to get the best price possible along the lines of that thinking.Have had my share of "lost" opportunities. Plenty of them over the years due to the above scenario.

Playing the devil's advocate here.

All these the problems of the hobbyists? Are the hobbyists supposed to look after the livelihood of the pros? If the client does not know the difference between a pro and a hobbyist (assuming there is a difference between pros and hobbyists), that is the problem of the hobbyists? Are we in monoploy mode? Meaning that only pros can offer their services? Or is this a free market? Is it the responsibility of the hobbyists to tell the clients that they are not as good as pros? Or is it the job of pros to educate the clients that they are better than hobbyists?

And now some honest opinions.

I have seen some very good pro works.
I have also seen some very trashy pro works.
I have seen some very trashy hobbyist works.
I have also seen some very good hobbyist works.

Originally Posted by maxby Damn! I not only shoot for free but have to pay for every shot I made...

Sigh! Likewise!

[atria83]

Originally Posted by ari7474tme Many people still buy pirated DVDs from the sidewalk and there are those who buy original from proper stores. I guess its still up to your client. As for what Grant said about proper conduct during weddings, in his previous thread, that I agree. So, if i charge 3k for a wedding (thats how much I think my work cost), then I think its my right. If another photog charges 10k (thats how much he thinks his work cost), then its his right. Again, if Mr Wannabe charges RM 500, then let him be. Most modern couples nowadays, knows what they want. And they are willing to pay if they like your work. Guys, this is my opinion only ya.. To all pros, i fully respect what you guys do. Its tougher now in the digital era. Peace

yup i agree...now specifically for wedding and the target the young couple...they know what they want...and they know if they like the photographer from their previous shoot...i got fren who got married..she also got few friends how also doing wedding photography..but instead she go for more establish photographer..the reason is simple...

"kawen sekali jer...i tak nak nnt tgk gambar...ishh aper nihh"

for me...if u want the nice picture...hired pro...and i guess..the pro even they have package...i think it still negotiable...

but if u very calculative...and think that every one who own DSLR can shoot like pro...then go hired them...the result..??hey..don't comment...

[webster]

Originally Posted by divina Playing the devil's advocate here. All these the problems of the hobbyists? Are the hobbyists supposed to look after the livelihood of the pros? If the client does not know the difference between a pro and a hobbyist (assuming there is a difference between pros and hobbyists), that is the problem of the hobbyists? Are we in monoploy mode? Meaning that only pros can offer their services? Or is this a free market? Is it the responsibility of the hobbyists to tell the clients that they are not as good as pros? Or is it the job of pros to educate the clients that they are better than hobbyists?

i agree with the statement. i don't like the fact that someone's ricebowl is being shaken, but that's the fact of life and that's the way it is.

[noruazumi]

asking for cheaper petrol doesn't seem to be a problem to most of the people.

but...

...when it comes to cheap photographers, waaaaaaaaaaaah...