Photogrpher.. Price and Pride.

[n30810c377]

Hello everyone, thanks for viewing this thread.

Here is a thing that made me think lately. Imagine 2 photographers:

The Situation:

Ali = A full time photographer
Abu = A fun/part time photographer

Ali is working as a photographer covering all of events (product, model,wedding, meeting..ect etc) and he owns a photography company that gives all of photography services.

Abu works in a bank and taking his photography as a part time job. Both have almost the same level of skill in photography.

The Problem:

For a wedding, Ali charges his customer with RM2500 per a wedding plan with a custom album. While Abu's price is only RM500 with the custom album (the same package but diffrent price). And their quality is about the same.
Due to the huge price diffrent, Abu seems to have more customer rather than Ali because Abu think a 8R custom album + digital printing will cost him about RM200 and he is still making RM300 profit to maintain his camera services plus Abu does has a staedy job in hand.

The Question:

1. Does Abu made a 'crime' for charging RM500 for a wedding plan compared to Ali (RM2500)..?
2. If yes, why..?

I understand that we Malaysia do not have the controlled photography price. My philosophy is: Majority of Malaysian loves lower price and quality item. But I do realized that sometimes, the so-called professional photographer with 'name' charges very high price for the product - claiming their professionality. And most of the time, (the makcik macik that I knew) they only want their face inside the photo - not the bokeh or technical thing that we photographer always try to achive (because they dont 'feel' the photgraphy). A very good example is when an adviertisement in megazine - how often the ordinary viewer see the technical detail of the colour, sharness, lighting instead of as a piece of advertisement..?

A friend of mine said that this kind of photographer (Abu) is killing the other photographers, but I do not think so. So what do u think..?

[photogenie]

It's a free market. A photographer has to charge for what he is worth. In this example, Abu has to cover 5 weddings to earn the same amount Ali earns in one wedding. So, should Ali complain?

[morpheuse]

the free market is not so free...

the thing is, Abu forgets to take into account the time it takes him to Post-process, transportation charges, maintenance (what happens if the camera needs repairs?) and upkeep, not to mention meals and other miscellaneous expenditure.

I know of people who have L-lenses but charges what Abu charges. So tell me again how does Abu hopes to make money in the long run?? he would probably grow tired of the process.

[n30810c377]

Thanks for the reply..

Originally Posted by photogenie It's a free market. A photographer has to charge for what he is worth. In this example, Abu has to cover 5 weddings to earn the same amount Ali earns in one wedding. So, should Ali complain?

What if Ali didnt get any customer at all due to Abu's price.. After all, people will start saying "Why so expensive..? Abu's price is only RM500."

Originally Posted by morpheuse the free market is not so free... the thing is, Abu forgets to take into account the time it takes him to Post-process, transportation charges, maintenance (what happens if the camera needs repairs?) and upkeep, not to mention meals and other miscellaneous expenditure. I know of people who have L-lenses but charges what Abu charges. So tell me again how does Abu hopes to make money in the long run?? he would probably grow tired of the process.

What if Abu think its enough and he can live with the low profit but constant..? And everyone will ask for Abu's price instead of Ali and Ali cant survive..

[johan2]

Originally Posted by n30810c377 For a wedding, Ali charges his customer with RM2500 per a wedding plan with a custom album. While Abu's price is only RM500 with the custom album (the same package but diffrent price). And their quality is about the same.

I've learnt my lesson 2 years ago and will never charge Rm500 for wedding photography + a custom album nowadays. It would be easy to do so but I want to respect the rice bowl of full time photographers. I only make rare exceptions for a close family member who really can't afford Rm2,500 for a wedding photographer.

Originally Posted by n3080c377 A friend of mine said that this kind of photographer (Abu) is killing the other photographers, but I do not think so. So what do u think..?

On the other side of the coin, I have met and grown to respect full time wedding photographers who charge Rm2k+ and some even Rm4k+ per wedding event. Now, these are skillful wedding photographers who add such great value to the special day of a newlywed couple that they see the value in forking out this much money. These are the wedding photographers I want to look up to and emulate. I want my skills to one day be at this level. That would be the day I will retire from my day job and be a full time wedding photographer.

And oh, did I say that I have found most other types of photography like event photography to muster even lower rates than wedding photography?

Yes, commercial photography rates can be much higher, but the frequency of these occasions are very rare (especially for a part time photographer like me).

thus is my two cents worth of opinion. i hope it adds value to this thread.

[morpheuse]

but u forget the law of supply and demand, if hes good, and he gets a lot of people asking for him, he wont be able to cope because the demand is just more than he can supply. in order to cope, he would need to hire assistants and other misc things like better equipment and cameras... then he would have to raise the price because RM500 wont be enough to cover the cost of his assistants and what nots...

again, if abu just shoot for weekends and you say his day job allows him to do the post processing freely, that he can process a few thousand photos, send it for approval to clients, tweak it again, then make sure the album is printed correctly without incurring extra costs (transportation for outstation or nearby location, parking, wear and tear of mode of transport, taxi, meals, kena saman) then im sure a whole lot of people here are in the wrong line and would like to know what abu does for a day job.

not saying not possible - its possible, but as always, time is a constraint. u cant shoot RM500 all the time, everytime, and expect whatever your day job is to cover the extras without it taking a toll in your long term expenditure. thats why i say abu forgot to count all the hidden costs.

it doesnt matter what abu thinks - the moment the operating costs starts eating into his everyday spending money, he would raise the price as easy as ali.

Originally Posted by n30810c377 Thanks for the reply.. What if Ali didnt get any customer at all due to Abu's price.. After all, people will start saying "Why so expensive..? Abu's price is only RM500." What if Abu think its enough and he can live with the low profit but constant..? And everyone will ask for Abu's price instead of Ali and Ali cant survive..

[buyid]

Originally Posted by n30810c377 Hello everyone, thanks for viewing this thread. Here is a thing that made me think lately. Imagine 2 photographers: The Situation: Ali = A full time photographer Abu = A fun/part time photographer Ali is working as a photographer covering all of events (product, model,wedding, meeting..ect etc) and he owns a photography company that gives all of photography services. Abu works in a bank and taking his photography as a part time job. Both have almost the same level of skill in photography. The Problem: For a wedding, Ali charges his customer with RM2500 per a wedding plan with a custom album. While Abu's price is only RM500 with the custom album (the same package but diffrent price). And their quality is about the same. Due to the huge price diffrent, Abu seems to have more customer rather than Ali because Abu think a 8R custom album + digital printing will cost him about RM200 and he is still making RM300 profit to maintain his camera services plus Abu does has a staedy job in hand. The Question: 1. Does Abu made a 'crime' for charging RM500 for a wedding plan compared to Ali (RM2500)..? 2. If yes, why..? I understand that we Malaysia do not have the controlled photography price. My philosophy is: Majority of Malaysian loves lower price and quality item. But I do realized that sometimes, the so-called professional photographer with 'name' charges very high price for the product - claiming their professionality. And most of the time, (the makcik macik that I knew) they only want their face inside the photo - not the bokeh or technical thing that we photographer always try to achive (because they dont 'feel' the photgraphy). A very good example is when an adviertisement in megazine - how often the ordinary viewer see the technical detail of the colour, sharness, lighting instead of as a piece of advertisement..? A friend of mine said that this kind of photographer (Abu) is killing the other photographers, but I do not think so. So what do u think..?

Brother u think photography gear is like the energizer bunny issit? It doesn't go on and on.

You have to factor in wear and tear of equipment to your costs. Shutters will fail, battery packs will need to replaced, CF cards evetually will fail. Autofocus motors will go kaput. Flash bulbs will burn out. And if u want to call yourself a pro u must have redundecy in almost everything. 2 camera bodies, flashes, batteries and the odd spare lens to cover failures.

Gbone has the scary experience of equipment malfunction during a wedding. I've experienced it also. Not very comfortable.

Then there's the computing side... hard drives to replace, back up of hard drives. Monitors eventually go kaput.

Bear in mind, Abu probably got to the same skill level as Ali probably because Ali learnt things the hard way and imparted that knowledge to Abu through forums like this.

Though Abu has every right to charge what he wants to charge he probably wont last if he really takes it seriuosly and still charges RM500.

[morpheuse]

buyid has a good point there about maintenance and wear and tear which i touched a bit.

another point: lets just say abu, since hes very industrious and wants to make constant side-income, takes two jobs in a day. one is a akad nikah, and another one is a full-fledged persandingan wedding dinner.

abu whos been to a lot of them, thought that since akad nikah is in the morning, and the real shooting is only for an hour, he can make some quick RM500. He also know he has time to go from the akad nikah to the wedding hall for the next event thats he's also charging for RM500.

Now, before i even begin going into the details, tell me how is a one hour job and a six hours job can both be rated at RM500? doesn't make sense, does it?

so abu shot the 1 hour job and hes got 500 pictures. meanwhile, the wedding dinner he got himself 2500 pictures. he needs to sort all of the pictures he needs to PP. and, since hes so good (which is why hes in demand and got himself booked for two jobs in a day) all his pictures turned out great and he wants to PP all of them!

because he needs to pass the pictures to the printer, since hes got a deadline too - it takes him all of 5 days to do it, because he's working you see? so he can only do it at home, from 8pm until 12am, because he needs to wake up at 7am. in the time it takes him to process the pictures, he doesnt need to see his wife, talk to his mother, his kids, his mistress, his girlfriends, his neighbours, or anyone else...also, hes losing some sleep.

now, i dont know about anyone else here, but RM500 for 5 days of work is too little to even consider losing sleep, apetite, and a lot of hair from eating maggi in a cup.

add in with what buyid said, still think RM500 is enough? its barely enough to buy a second-hand bg-e3!

[raizil]

RM500 is a big no no.. all 'seafood', please jaga the sifu periuk nasik OK?

[johan2]

Originally Posted by morpheuse now, i dont know about anyone else here, but RM500 for 5 days of work is too little to even consider losing sleep, apetite, and a lot of hair from eating maggi in a cup. add in with what buyid said, still think RM500 is enough? its barely enough to buy a second-hand bg-e3!

good points morpheuse and buyid

the problem is, Abu (let me now call him A) might be willing to eat, breath, sleep photography and wedding album for a few wedding events and get paid only Rm500 for all this. sooner or later, he will realise he's not willing to do it for Rm500 anymore and he will raise his price to Rm1,000 (as his skill has also improved)

the bad news is that there are now 10 B's willing to charge Rm500 for the same wedding event. eventually, they will come to the same realisation as A.

the "badder" news is that there are now 50 C's willing to charge Rm500 for the same wedding event, and so on and so forth.

so, where does that leave Ali, Abu, Bala, Chan, Dennis, Eileen and Fariz? many will quit shooting for money along the way, but not before they "spoil" the market. agreed?

that's why i really respect wedding photographers who can charge top dollar rates and keep on pushing their envelope to come up with more spectacular images with every wedding season.

[ari7474tme]

Dear all,

I have always liked to read similar threads about this pro vs part time wannabe photog. About how they charge and so on and so forth. Firstly, I agree with what was said about cost of time and equipment. Sooner or later, Abu is not going to be able to cope with that RM500.. but.. in this case, lets assume that doesnt happen. And Abu continues to charge RM500 and limits his job to however much he can handle. And as time goes by, people prefer Abu compared to Ali because of his price since everything else is the same. And after a while, Ali close shop.

So, the question is.. Was Abu at fault for charging 20% of what Ali is charging and because of that, Ali has to find another job? My opinion is... NO. I feel that as long as he has customers coming his way, then he should continue doing what he loves to do and charges what he feels is the right price for his work. Of course, this doesnt happen in the real world as what was written by Buyid, Johan2, Morpheus and the rest. I agree with them but what I dont agree is, why should Abu "jaga the sifu's periuk nasik?"

Ok guys, before I get firing from anyone, please understand that I fully respect the full-time pros in here and I'm not in a position to even say anything as I am just a happy-happy button pusher who likes to shoot cars.. This is just my opinion and I like to argue about this topic but I hope no one takes my comment to heart ok?

Peace...

[aziel-chan]

This is how I see this situation. Ali, as a full-time photographer who is also concern about maintaining his business reputation in the long run. As a full-time photographer, he manage to concentrate on his client's photos in fewer days than Abu, as Ali's daily schedule is solely under his own control. Therefore, Ali manage to outline and achieve his target on when to deliver the final output to the client. Ali's workflow and ouput is always consistent. His clients are happy with what they pay and what they get in return.

Now, considering Abu is 'kerja makan gaji' (as I believe if Abu is a businessman, he should be well aware of what damage he has done to himself), he is tied with his responsibility as an employee. Sometimes Abu is required to work outstation for days, or need to meet certain deadlines urgently. Abu cannot afford to loose his day job, so he must comply to whatever his boss requires him to do, even if that means he has to sacrifice his own personal time. Since Abu is not a Superman, he only has 3 options: - 1-To delay his PP works; 2-To be selective on his PP works; or 3-To pay his friend who is also a part-time photographer to do the PP works, perhaps for RM50.

Both options will not make Abu any better than Ali. Abu is not able to maintain his own quality as a photographer. On the client's side, if RM500 is what they pay, RM500 is what they get.

I certainly think this is not about "jaga periuk nasi" the other full-time photographer, but this is about knowledge. It is sad to know that some people do not realise what they are loosing and that they are actually paying the client to give them job.

Abu did not make a crime by charging RM500, but he has just been unfair to himself and his family for all the time and money he lost while continue doing this. What a lost.

[morpheuse]

to me, its really about how much you know about doing business, not so much about pride. its ok if he charges so little, because there is a market even for the free start up photogs, its just so disheartening to find out photogs who slave so much for so little money all because they think its easy to do without thinking of the hidden costs (ive met a few whom ive had to school abt this). also disheartening to find part-timers with all the expensive equipment charging so little. when your equipment breaks down then you will realise its not worth it charging so little and giving so much. expectations on both sides have to be met accordingly.

im also hoping this would be a primer for those who wants to start small, that you probably didnt think of this angle before, as well as educating the consumer that there is a reason why certain photogs charges so much. its just basic supply and demand.

Ali wont really have to close shop if hes any good... he would have his specific RM2500 target market. RM500 and RM2500 and RM30000 market are very specific. Never the twain shall meet. But a RM500 photographer wont be forever an RM500 photog because of the reasons above.

[n30810c377]

Thanks for the reply guys..

I think most of u didnt get the point, but ari7474tme does. Actually this is the actual thing happen in Ipoh where a photographer only charge RM500-RM600 for a full day coverage of wedding compared to the other charges RM2500. I know about this, because I heard some complaints from makcik makcik (during a friend's wedding) because RM2K for them is big enough.

Dont ask how did he maintain his gear with RM500-RM600 charge (lacks of time, P.P skill, family etc etc) because this is his 6th year of doing this business and he just can do it and he feels the the profit is enough for him (maybe because he has a steady job in hand and doing photography as a part time) eventho many of u here think that it is impossible for him to charge a 'lil ammount of money for a big day. Im so proud of this guy actually because he just can do it! And his product is actually almost the same level with my friend who charges RM2000++ for a day (but I personally think that his one is better).

I did asked how did he do it.. and he told me that it only took him a 3 hours to edit 2 pages of custom album. Plus he doesnt has any hobby and photography is a PRIME hobby.

To make it worst, now he has his friends alltogether with him doing the same thing with the same price. So let me go back to the question, is that a 'crime' if other photographer cant survive because of this kind of people.

[damak]

Originally Posted by n30810c377 A friend of mine said that this kind of photographer (Abu) is killing the other photographers, but I do not think so. So what do u think..?

this friend of yours... mcm kenal jer

[buyid]

Well in principle there is nothing wrong with Abu charging even 50 sen for an album.

But the photographic industry in malaysia will not grow and improve without sufficient investment of resources. If the pro's out there die off how will the local scene improve? Very few ameteurs have the time and experience to upgrade their skills.

ANd is this friend aggressively out bidding the pro's? If he is I think that's very bad form.

But you are right. On paper there is no law that Abu has to jaga the pro's periuk nasi. It's just better sportsmanship I feel. That's all.

[n30810c377]

Originally Posted by damak this friend of yours... mcm kenal jer

Ngeh heh heh

[jetfynn]

Originally Posted by johan2 good points morpheuse and buyid the problem is, Abu (let me now call him A) might be willing to eat, breath, sleep photography and wedding album for a few wedding events and get paid only Rm500 for all this. sooner or later, he will realise he's not willing to do it for Rm500 anymore and he will raise his price to Rm1,000 (as his skill has also improved) the bad news is that there are now 10 B's willing to charge Rm500 for the same wedding event. eventually, they will come to the same realisation as A. the "badder" news is that there are now 50 C's willing to charge Rm500 for the same wedding event, and so on and so forth. so, where does that leave Ali, Abu, Bala, Chan, Dennis, Eileen and Fariz? many will quit shooting for money along the way, but not before they "spoil" the market. agreed? that's why i really respect wedding photographers who can charge top dollar rates and keep on pushing their envelope to come up with more spectacular images with every wedding season.

As with any business, there will always be spoilers and then again there are people who can last the distance.

Just like the analogy of a car, there will always be Kancils vs. Proton. Vs. Toyota vs. Mercedes vs. maybe Ferrari......

They are catering for the different markets and different clientele.

The sad news is that the barriers of entry is relatively easy and it's up to the clients who would like to have ease of mind to use pros who will be able to deliver even in the most extreme situations.

ie: Can a Kancil be driven in off road conditions vs. say a 4WD car?
Performance? Comfort? Deliverables?



or some clients don't mind risking the trade off using those lower priced ones.


In conclusion, the good photographers will always have a market and they can command a respectable sum for their services and also the ones who are willing to price themselves lower will also get jobs.

Then again, after so many years in the industry, one thing I do notice is that irregardless of what pricing charged, ALL of them want to look good.

[ari7474tme]

Originally Posted by buyid Well in principle there is nothing wrong with Abu charging even 50 sen for an album. But the photographic industry in malaysia will not grow and improve without sufficient investment of resources. If the pro's out there die off how will the local scene improve? Very few ameteurs have the time and experience to upgrade their skills. ANd is this friend aggressively out bidding the pro's? If he is I think that's very bad form. But you are right. On paper there is no law that Abu has to jaga the pro's periuk nasi. It's just better sportsmanship I feel. That's all.

Mr Buyid,

I think you've summed this up nicely. But, I dont think he is deliberately out bidding the pros.. Its just that he feels what he's charging is enough. Until when he'll last, I dont know. As for the clients, there's always enough for everyone. The budget clients, the Mega Stars and the mid level clients. So, the budget clients wont even dare to ask from the photog with a fancy website as they know they wont be able to afford them. On the other end, the Mega Stars wont even look at photogs that dont have a fancy portfolio of other Mega Stars. At the end of the day, in real life, I dont think the pros will close shop as there is market for everyone.

As for me, honestly, I dont know how anyone could do a wedding job without at least a back up body/flash/external hardisk and still charge less than RM 2k. But then again, like what n30810c377 said, there are people doing it and they're happy with it. So, as we are all photogs, with ambitions and goals in life, I would like to wish everyone good luck and all the best in their future jobs.

Peace guys..

[lurker]

nicely put arguments...
can pin this thread ka?